I'm trying to track down some ownership cost info on Seneca IIs specifically.
I own a V-tail Bonanza now. It's a very good plane and it will fit our mission profile for years to come. That said, I may be in a position to partner in a PA-34-200T (no specific plane at the moment) and I want to build out a reasonably accurate cost model. A -200T would be all the plane we'd ever need.
I have around 100hrs in Seneca IIs flying freight. It was a solid little plane and carried ice surprisingly well. We liked the roomy cabin, too.
Now, for a barrage of questions:
-What do you plan for maintenance (with FIKI)?
-I have a retail quote of ~$28k for a top prop conversion. What's a typical two-blade OH run per side (with boots)? Are there ADs on the 2-bld props? All things being equal I'd prefer the two-blades.
-What's a L/TSIO-360-E/EB cost to overhaul these days? Includes turbo?
-How often do you need to OH the turbos? Approx. price? Are fixed waste gates better (we had fixed gates)?
-The newer TCM 500 series cylinders seem to develop valve problems straight from TCM. Do the 300 series cylinders have the same problem? Can you generally rely on the top end making TBO and beyond?
-Can the TSIO-360s handle LOP (assumes Gamis & EDM w/FF of some sort)?
-What are the common long range & high speed power settings, FF, and speeds to expect?
-What's a ballpark for insurance? I have a few thousand pt91/135 with ~1500 multi (800 PIC turbine), and 90 make/model.
-Is the landing gear AD as bad as everyone says it is?
-What kind of range can you expect at 160kts with factory LR tanks? Nacelle tanks?
-Are there any other unusual or expensive ADs out on the airframe?
-Is the airframe life limited?
Mission (mileage is one-way):
A few 700nm trips each year with at least four adults (adding kid soon). One long 1400nm trip from AZ to MI once a year. At least one ski trip into Utah/Colorado each year. At least one trip with 2-4 people camping or mountain biking each year. The remainder of the flying will be ~300nm day/wkend trips or putting around at low power for currency/fun.
My wishlist. Assuming that it exists how would you price it in real world dollars?
MUST HAVE:
-Fleet/year average TTAF.
-Mid-time engines with staggered times. Low-ish time props, prefer two-blade without ADs (if possible).
-Must be hangared.
-Must have flown at least 4hrs/mo in dry climate; 8hrs/mo in wet climate.
-Must have some kind of updated/functional 2-axis AP. Approach coupling not required. Y/D not required.
-Must have engine monitors with FF.
-Must have some kind of WAAS GPS; mode S TXP nice to have. Otherwise a KT-76 Mode C. Old Collins microline Nav/Comms preferred over other radios (cheap to replace). All other avionics are a so-what.
-Must be FIKI
-Must have all logs
-Must have at least LR tanks. 150gal preferred.
NICE TO HAVE:
-Speed mods ranked in this order: spats, cowls, flap fairings, everything else.
-Radar would be nice (B&W or color) but isn't necessary
-Prefer club seating
-Prefer ZFW increase
-NDH a plus though not required if >10 years old and repaired well.
-Fair paint (no exposed aluminum or glaring flaws ~20' away)
-Good interior (presentable leather with some wear)
-Air conditioning
Using a 1976 Seneca II with 6080 TTAF AOPA VRef gives me:
~$80k for a plane with the musts
~$97k with musts+nice to haves
VRef tends to run on the high side. How much slop would you build in to these numbers?
I hope there are people out there in Piperland who can help me! The Seneca II looks promising and I think it would be the perfect family plane.
I own a V-tail Bonanza now. It's a very good plane and it will fit our mission profile for years to come. That said, I may be in a position to partner in a PA-34-200T (no specific plane at the moment) and I want to build out a reasonably accurate cost model. A -200T would be all the plane we'd ever need.
I have around 100hrs in Seneca IIs flying freight. It was a solid little plane and carried ice surprisingly well. We liked the roomy cabin, too.
Now, for a barrage of questions:
-What do you plan for maintenance (with FIKI)?
-I have a retail quote of ~$28k for a top prop conversion. What's a typical two-blade OH run per side (with boots)? Are there ADs on the 2-bld props? All things being equal I'd prefer the two-blades.
-What's a L/TSIO-360-E/EB cost to overhaul these days? Includes turbo?
-How often do you need to OH the turbos? Approx. price? Are fixed waste gates better (we had fixed gates)?
-The newer TCM 500 series cylinders seem to develop valve problems straight from TCM. Do the 300 series cylinders have the same problem? Can you generally rely on the top end making TBO and beyond?
-Can the TSIO-360s handle LOP (assumes Gamis & EDM w/FF of some sort)?
-What are the common long range & high speed power settings, FF, and speeds to expect?
-What's a ballpark for insurance? I have a few thousand pt91/135 with ~1500 multi (800 PIC turbine), and 90 make/model.
-Is the landing gear AD as bad as everyone says it is?
-What kind of range can you expect at 160kts with factory LR tanks? Nacelle tanks?
-Are there any other unusual or expensive ADs out on the airframe?
-Is the airframe life limited?
Mission (mileage is one-way):
A few 700nm trips each year with at least four adults (adding kid
My wishlist. Assuming that it exists how would you price it in real world dollars?
MUST HAVE:
-Fleet/year average TTAF.
-Mid-time engines with staggered times. Low-ish time props, prefer two-blade without ADs (if possible).
-Must be hangared.
-Must have flown at least 4hrs/mo in dry climate; 8hrs/mo in wet climate.
-Must have some kind of updated/functional 2-axis AP. Approach coupling not required. Y/D not required.
-Must have engine monitors with FF.
-Must have some kind of WAAS GPS; mode S TXP nice to have. Otherwise a KT-76 Mode C. Old Collins microline Nav/Comms preferred over other radios (cheap to replace). All other avionics are a so-what.
-Must be FIKI
-Must have all logs
-Must have at least LR tanks. 150gal preferred.
NICE TO HAVE:
-Speed mods ranked in this order: spats, cowls, flap fairings, everything else.
-Radar would be nice (B&W or color) but isn't necessary
-Prefer club seating
-Prefer ZFW increase
-NDH a plus though not required if >10 years old and repaired well.
-Fair paint (no exposed aluminum or glaring flaws ~20' away)
-Good interior (presentable leather with some wear)
-Air conditioning
Using a 1976 Seneca II with 6080 TTAF AOPA VRef gives me:
~$80k for a plane with the musts
~$97k with musts+nice to haves
VRef tends to run on the high side. How much slop would you build in to these numbers?
I hope there are people out there in Piperland who can help me! The Seneca II looks promising and I think it would be the perfect family plane.
Last edited:
