Piper Forum > Piper Models > Twins > decreasing performance windshear... hard landing
Help Support Piper Forum by donating using the link above or becoming a Supporting Member.
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-13-2017, 03:25 AM   #1
Coopere
Established Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 381
Liked 48 Times on 40 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default decreasing performance windshear... hard landing

went flying in the aztec today, and long story short I was coming in to land at my home airport and I knew because of the windy conditions I should increase the approach speed and I did, I was 100mph over the fence instead of 86mph as the book said, I was fairly heavy about 4650lbs gross...

due to the way the trees are parallel along the runway about 300-500 ft away I was expecting to have some turbulence as usual. the wind was about 12 - 15 kts gusting 20 (not from my field but from the closest metar some 15 miles away) the wind sock showed about a 60 degree cross wind at around 12kts...

in the flare i seemed to encounter some major decreasing performance windshear that resulted in a hard landing, landed fairly flat but I believe the mains hit first then the nose, my gut reaction once I felt the airplane sink was to raise the nose and protect the nose wheel It happened very quickly last airspeed I saw was 86mph and that should have been fine... If it was a normal landing I would say I was about 2-4 seconds from touchdown probably 1ft off the runway surface, but she sunk pretty fast

it was a firm plant onto the runway, with a clunk, no bounce, no skid or anything to indicate damage from the landing, I'm not used to this type of landing at all, generally my friends and family often ask if I have actually landed, I have gotten very skilled at greasing landings in the aztec, even my instructors for my multi ifr have commented that I seem skilled at the task,

I have to say out of 4 years of flying this machine and some 260hrs on her this was by far the worst landing I have made, ego bruising for sure, I expect more from my self and hold myself to a high standard in general plus I generally baby her...

that said I did a very through post landing inspection, no flat tires, no leaking oleo fluid, no flat oleo's, no bent parts visible from laying on my back looking up into the wheel wells, the gear actuators are tight and normal no play in anything that I can find without pulling the upper cowling and turtle deck covers, no hydraulic fluid ect...

from what I see, I can't find anything that is not normal... is their anything else I should check before another flight?

its probably fine, but I'm likely posting simply as a sanity check, I'm sure people have landed way harder than this, just for me it was pretty bad, kinda like hitting a speed bump in a car with a loud clunk...

I think this eventually happens to everyone, I just haven't had a bad landing yet and today I guess was my day....

live and learn..
advice welcome, next time I'm coming in wicked hot....
thanks guys
Eric


Coopere is offline  
Jackob Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 11:50 AM   #2
GM.
Supporting Member
PiPe_ADMIN.png
 
GM.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,918
Liked 1727 Times on 1299 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coopere View Post

I think this eventually happens to everyone, I just haven't had a bad landing yet and today I guess was my day....

live and learn..
advice welcome, next time I'm coming in wicked hot....
thanks guys
Eric
It does, Just shake it off.

Coming in wicked hot probably will create other issues plus you will still have to eventually slow near the runway where the occurrence happened. Seems the speed was fine on final approach for the conditions so what would an even faster speed do to help? In these conditions with a high sink rate just prior to flare to increase the power. Just push them up 1/4 to 1/3 of the way and quickly pull them back as you continue to fly the airplane. Sometimes pulling the yoke back with a high sink rate can can exasperate the problem making the landing even harder.

By the way, kudos for flying on the windy days. That's the only way you will refine your technique and learn. Far better than sitting on the couch.

If you are still concerned after your post flight inspection, have your mechanic check the gear attach points and sheet metal for wrinkles to verify your findings. These are tough birds though and it's probably fine.


GM. is offline  
Jackob Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 12:11 PM   #3
Coopere
Established Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 381
Liked 48 Times on 40 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Thanks so much GM for the post and advice! I'm going up again today to shake it off

Eric
Coopere is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 12:42 PM   #4
sierrakilo99
Established Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Apopka FL
Posts: 1,124
Liked 219 Times on 183 Posts
Likes Given: 136

Default

These old planes, they can take a pretty hard landing for sure.

Piper has a set of 'special maintenance inspections' for several categories, this is one that's on that list. Like GM said look at the skins above the landing gear struts, if you see any wrinkling (like 'pushed' up from within) open the panels and get a strong light out and take a close look at all the ribs/spars/flanges that attach to those skins. Our Arrow suffered a bothched crosswind landing w/a student and instructor onboard, and everything looked ok afterwards except for the 'dent' in the skin on that side. Closer inspection revealed a crack in the support rib where the strut attaches, then more cracked parts that were attached to the rib, very difficult to see the small crack (see arrows, also a missing rivet).

sk
447.jpg  
__________________
"Not my circus, not my monkeys"
sierrakilo99 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 02:38 PM   #5
Leigh
Established Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,738
Liked 872 Times on 656 Posts
Likes Given: 743

Default

This is just my opinion but from many years of flying from a rather windy airport I figure that a firm landing on gusty windy days is safer than trying to grease it on like is easy to do on calm ones. By firm, I don't mean dropping it from 5 feet up but trying to manipulate power and controls at the same time can lead to some big problems due to overcontrol that can result in ballooning and a much harder, damage causing impact. The main gear on Arrows is pretty strong but like all gear one should try to minimize the sideways loading on landing that will result from being crabbed on touchdown. As long as you are landing largely into the wind, your ground speed is much reduced which effectively increases runway length and thus compensates for keeping a bit of power on for the whole landing sequence which greatly enhances the control during flare. So far it's worked well for me in many kinds of planes for 44 years, but each has to figure it out for themselves.
Leigh is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 06:16 PM   #6
killrocks
Established Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,784
Liked 618 Times on 443 Posts
Likes Given: 510

Default

Maybe I'm full of hot air as a student, but I would imagine adding power wouldn't have the same increase in control effectiveness (particularly rudder and elevator) on a twin as it would on a single, since the tail feathers on a twin aren't aft of the prop's airstream? It would still increase airspeed and arrest a sink of course, just wouldn't have the prop blast adding energy to the rudder and elevator.
killrocks is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 06:24 PM   #7
N33GG
Galactic Commander
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 609
Liked 207 Times on 152 Posts
Likes Given: 222

Default

If you didn't break anything, you didnt land hard enough to really learn a lesson.

But don't worry, if you fly long enough you'll get there!

Truly, we've all been there.
N33GG is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 11:24 PM   #8
GM.
Supporting Member
PiPe_ADMIN.png
 
GM.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,918
Liked 1727 Times on 1299 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by killrocks View Post
Maybe I'm full of hot air as a student, but I would imagine adding power wouldn't have the same increase in control effectiveness (particularly rudder and elevator) on a twin as it would on a single, since the tail feathers on a twin aren't aft of the prop's airstream? It would still increase airspeed and arrest a sink of course, just wouldn't have the prop blast adding energy to the rudder and elevator.
The increased power/thrust will arrest the sink rate in an Aztec or a 100+ passenger jet. I wasn't even considering rudder effectiveness with the suggestion as he didn't mention that there was a crosswind issue.
GM. is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 11:25 PM   #9
GM.
Supporting Member
PiPe_ADMIN.png
 
GM.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,918
Liked 1727 Times on 1299 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sierrakilo99 View Post
These old planes, they can take a pretty hard landing for sure.

Piper has a set of 'special maintenance inspections' for several categories, this is one that's on that list. Like GM said look at the skins above the landing gear struts, if you see any wrinkling (like 'pushed' up from within) open the panels and get a strong light out and take a close look at all the ribs/spars/flanges that attach to those skins. Our Arrow suffered a bothched crosswind landing w/a student and instructor onboard, and everything looked ok afterwards except for the 'dent' in the skin on that side. Closer inspection revealed a crack in the support rib where the strut attaches, then more cracked parts that were attached to the rib, very difficult to see the small crack (see arrows, also a missing rivet).

sk
Strange the apparent prior structural repair cracked a second time. I wonder if they actually finished the first job correctly.


GM. is offline  
N33GG Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hard to let go of the ADF Canuck Avionics 18 06-18-2017 10:39 PM
Hard to start diver235 Cherokee 6 05-31-2017 02:14 PM
Nose strut collapsed while braking hard on landing. oldboyroy Cherokee 15 03-24-2017 01:59 AM
Hard landing Brndn756 Cherokee 28 11-22-2016 08:15 AM
PA28-140 hard landing piperowner General Piper Discussion 16 07-15-2014 06:38 PM

This forum is provided for entertainment purposes only. Piperforum.com is not affiliated or endorsed by Piper Aircraft Inc. or its subsidiaries.


Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS