bartmc

Ive been doing mainly cross country flying and instrument training since I got my ticket Dec 31st of last year. And somehow my landings at my home airport had gotten worse, It sits up on a ridge and the perspective is a little disorienting and it's laid out due to the geography of the area and not because of the prevailing winds, so, there is always a crosswind. I didn't have much going on yesterday, weather was OK about 55 degrees F broken at 12,000 and about a 6-7 direct crosswind. I decided to go do some pattern work because my landings had been consistently long and I wasn't happy with them. The CFI/ATP I bought the plane from was against touch an goes and preached to me about not doing them. I had done some (about 2) touch and goes on a 10,000 ft Rwy at a controlled airport in the Cherokee but not enough to be comfortable with it, and since my landings had been long and my home airport is 3600', I decided that I was going to do full stops and taxi back. I think I got more out of that than any touch and go session I ever did. Mainly because I had time to really study the windsock and mentally prepare for the crosswind landing and I wasn't worried that I'd missed something (flaps, trim, etc...) in a hurry to get the throttle firewalled again. I may do touch and goes a busy airports with long runways but I don't think I'll be doing them again at my short airport where a taxi back adds 2 minutes. What's your take?

bartmc

Also I had picked up the habit of dropping the flaps as soon as all three wheels hit the ground then grabbing the brakes (no toe brakes). I think I started doing this to really get the wheels planted because when I first got the plane, I was landing too fast. And, I think the reason I was landing long is because I had been trying to land a Cessna 150 which is pretty much power off down final and my Cherokee's sink rate scares me so I error on the side of being long as opposed to dropping it in too hard. I seem to have gotten all the kinks worked out with about 6 good landings yesterday.

JimC

Practice is always the best cure-all. I make all my Cherokee approaches at idle power with full flaps. When I need additional sink rate I add in a slip to the full flaps. I dump the flaps at touchdown but usually don't apply brakes unless I need them.

Touch and goes are more risky than full stops, but are better practice for aborted landings. You should be comfortable with both. BTW, when surfaces are soft/slick I use the hand brake in lieu of the toe brakes.

kamikaze

That's pretty much how I do it, though I sometimes find myself adding a bit of power on flare, for a little extra smoothness/cushioning.

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1975 PA-28-151

bartmc

My problem was, I felt like I was low and wound up being high every time. I fixed it, funny thing is, i didn't have the problem at any other airport but the one I have done 95% of my landing practice at.

Leigh

My thoughts on this are that practicing both power on and power off approaches are good to do as they both help you keep tuned up on handling your plane. Doing these with cross winds is also good practice making it easier to land in less than ideal conditions. Regarding touch and goes vs full stop back in the "good old days" when we could fly into Calgary International without charge we sometimes used to practice touch and goes on their long runway and tried to get four of them in on each approach. An alternative when doing practice landings on long runways is to do "stop and goes" which eliminates the need for any backtracking.

JimC

About the only time that I add power on short final is when I want to touch down at less than power-off stall speed.

Mountain Pilot

Hello Bart and other fellow bird men...

I got away from touch-and-go's years back when I moved up into Colorado. With the altitude and need for long runways, T/Go's were not safe at many airports up here, so I trained my students to never do T/Go's unless it was to avoid hazards. I found out what you had mentioned, students learn far more with full stop landings, give far more consistent landings and progress faster.

I think T/Go's came into being at busy airports where there was a lot of training going on ( I was trained at Tucson Intl in the 60's where there would be 8 + training aircraft in the pattern at one time. ) also instructors had that "the more the better" attitude, I know I was the same way.

As to power approaches, I train and practice with both power off + flaps and power applied + flaps. Mainly use power with passengers to minimize approach angle and to assure a smooth overall landing. With passengers at my field elevation ( 7610 ft ) a power approach is overall safer for it is very easy to pickup a high sink rate and engine power application is slow & limited.

By myself or with advanced students I do tight, full flap, power approaches with slip to landing. These darn Cherokees will just fall out of the sky but do not let the airspeed get low for you will need the speed to round out for landing.

One other thing I always teach and practice using the large landing marks 1,000 feet down the runway as landing points, this way if one lands "short" he has pavement under him and the student can see how much his landing is short and can adjust his next attempt. Two local pilots have damaged their aircraft in the last few years trying to "hit the numbers" at the local airport and has had to purchase approach runway lights as well as pay the A/P a lot of $$$ to repair the damage to their bird.

Well that is my 2 cents...

Jim_M

My take on touch and goes has changed over the years. I used to teach my students using touch and goes as the norm. Then about ten years ago, one the FBO's at our field had five accidents in a five month period. Every one of them involving a student doing a touch and go, with the associated diversion of attention from outside the aircraft to inside the cabin. In each case, the landing was successful but the students would taxi to the right or left off the runway and into the surrounding grass fields. The school I was working for at the time made it a policy that touch and goes could only be done when a second, qualifed pilot was in the passenger seat. No solo touch and goes - be it student, pilot, or instructor.

That was an acceptable and safe policy for the school, but I always thought it was a bit of an over-reaction. There are a lot of variables in play including pilot skill, runway environment, complexity of the taxiway layout, etc. and I kind of believe that it is a case of "pilot know thyself". If you consider all the variables and you feel comfortable doing touch and goes at a particular airport, or in a particular environment, it's probably a safe decision.

Just my 2 cents, but I think I owe you some change.

Jim M

Dave M

Being able to "do it all" is a good idea but I seldom do T/G's since I'm not renting. I retract the flaps if I need a lot of brake (as when asked to "expedite" at places like Bullhead (IFP) where landing on the numbers means being on the R/W another 10 minutes) but on a normal landing only do so after letting the drag of full flaps and full elevator do as much of the job as practical. Otherwise I have to replace brake shoes too often.